Eric Rupe over at The Weekly Crisis wonders aloud:
It occurs to me that I’ve never seen anyone complaining that the 40th volume of Naruto should be accessible. Why is it only for Marvel and DC that people complain about the material being inaccessible? I mean, being generous here, the big Marvel and DC characters have been around for at least 30 years, often a lot more, and most have been in constant publication during that time as well. How do you tell continuously “accessible” stories with those kinds of characters without devolving into some sort of Archie status quo where nothing ever really happens?
Obviously, you need jumping on points, but lets take two examples from Marvel – the Ultimate Universe and Brand New Day. Sure, at the start, they were probably both good places to start, but, after a while, they do develop in title continuity and become “inaccessible” to new readers. It’s something that you are never going to be able to “fix” and still tell stories worth reading. I think Marvel did find something of a good solution though with their “Saga” free issues (ex. War of Kings Saga), but they are still only available in comic stores or on their websites, which only really preaches to the choir instead of making the comics accessible to new people.
Well, since Rupe is confused, let me explain.
Naruto #40 isn’t accessible…but anyone who can count can look at the cover, and say, “oh, right…I should start reading this series….at number 1. Simple, easy, based on the Arabic numeral system which is familiar to most likely readers. That is what you call “accessible.”
On the other hand, let’s take those two examples from Marvel. The Ultimate Universe and Brand New Day, you say. And I, as a new potential reader of Spider-Man, respond, “What the fucking fuck?” Ultimate Universe? Regular Universe? New Day? Old Day? Are these Spider-Man comics? What’s the difference between these Spider-Man comics? Where’s the real Spider-Man comic…the one that’s, you know, about Spider-Man?
Naruto has one single, simple, clear point of entry. Spider-Man has fifteen gazillion points of entry, none of which are actually a beginning. Therefore, Naruto is accessible and Spider-Man is a lot less so. Except for the Marvel Adventures all-ages Spider-Man, which has individual stand-alone adventures. Like Archie. And which is actually pretty good.
Update: Matt Maxwell weighs in.
Covering simliar ground, the Economist has a nice profile of Stan Lee this week, with a different perspective on accessibility. (Has Tucker dug into this yet? Whenever I visit his page the pedophagic Muppet puts me off.)
Noah — when you put it that way, one sees your point. I guess the idea is that Naruto's stuff is like a long hallway with a single door to enter by, whereas US hero stuff is more like a highway spaghetti interchange
Bill, thanks for the Economist link. The piece was interesting on the stuff I don't know about, like marketing s-heroes to a big Hollywood audience, and I guess that was the heart of it. But they sure downpedal all the counter-evidence to Stan-as-creator that has come out over the decades. Kirby and Ditko are acknowledged and disposed of in the same sentence.
I love Naruto.
That's it exactly. Superhero nomemclature means exactly nothing to outsiders like me.
Also, you could start reading Naruto at volume 40; a lot of manga have a capsule summary at the beginning, and often you can jump right in and figure out the story pretty quickly. I don't know if that's true of Naruto, but it is true of a lot of manga. Viz made it even easier with Shojo Beat by putting little descriptions of the main characters and their relationships to one another at the beginning of each chapter.
Spider-Man is extremely accessible as a franchise. A lot of kids, and people aren't going to get their start with Spider-Man comics, they'll most likely start watching Spectacular Spider-Man or watch the movies.
These are great starting points for a lot of people and then they'll jump into the comics if they want.
The Ultimate Spider-Man universe is also equally as accessible because it too starts with a simple starting point, issue number 1.
In fact even now you could get caught up on the Spider-Man universe and many of the other Ultimate franchises very quickly and at a pretty good price too thanks to trades.
The trade service makes finding stories about certain comic book characters very very easy. Large bundled together issues will help young readers find the essential story elements of their favorite characters and certain archs will help them understand what's important.
Much like Naruto much of the comic book world is full of filler to just pass the time until the next big event. The Marvel universe has been doing this just as long and finally is starting to trim the fat and through many comics they're starting to wrap up certain ties and get things back to square one. X-Force is a great example of this. They're taking the time to go back maybe 10 years and tie up loose ends that will make other comics much more readable.
I think Spider-Man is one of the most accessible comics of all time. Much more so than Naruto.
i started trying to compare the accessability of the two subjects and came to conclude that they really can't be compared that way. Naruto, and most manga in general, are mortal. They are very, very long graphic novels, essentially. This means you have an start point and an end point, but also that the storytelling is typically more complex and thus requires more background to fully comprehend. Spiderman (and Marvel/superhero comics in general) is immortal; their stories have no apparent endpoint, though they most certainly have a start point, despite some arguments to the contrary. But, and this is overlooked, these books are also relatively accessible. This is mainly because what appears to be a mess of complexity is almost all superfluous, or at least it SHOULD be, if it's well written. That's part of why superhero comic writers are such a haggard lot; they have to wrap up so much content and present it in an understandable way to both familiar and new readers while still telling the story at hand.
personally, i think it's erroneous to assume that you can't just pick up and read Spiderman (or what have you). You'll likely have to start at the beginning of whatever the current story arc is, but at that point the (good) writer will present the story in a digestible way without too much confusing backmatter. also, keep in mind that much of what Marvel and DC put out are Limited Series, and those are relatively self contained stories. and let's not ignore the very obvious flexibility of trade paperbacks, the cure for just such an ailment.
i think it's also generally untrue that Naruto (and manga in general) can be enjoyed at any point. Manga, like a true graphic novel, is about the full journey. If you're skipping a portion of it, it's like skipping sections of a book; you can still enjoy it, and surmise what you missed, but that's not how it's intended to be read.
i hate to be a yo-yo, but i honestly think that both subjects and their respective species are inaccessible in their own way, and shouldn't be compared. to anyone complaining about said inaccessibility; might i suggest Archie?
"X-Force is a great example of this. They're taking the time to go back maybe 10 years and tie up loose ends that will make other comics much more readable."
Do you even hear yourself when you say things like this? I've been reading super-hero comics for thirty years or more, and, even so, I don't know what the hell you're talking about.
Spider-Man is a great concept, and kids love it. There are a lot of easy ways to get Spider-Man stories; cartoons, books for young readers (often horrible, but accessible), even the movies. There's even the first lee/ditko stories, which are actually pretty accessible for younger readers. And there's the all-ages Marvel Adventures title I mentioned.
But the mainstream, bread-and-butter Spider-Man books, of various stripes? That stuff is pretty much impossible to negotiate for anyone who's not already an initiate.
Brigid, have you read any of the Marvel Adventures books for all-ages readers? I'd be curious to hear what you think of them.
Adam, I blush to admit, but I haven't actually read Naruto.
But if I were to read Naruto, I would know exactly where to start.
Synthyte, the world you're talking about is a nice, attractive world. I wouldn't mind living there. However, most of us are stuck in a world where accessibility for new readers is the last concern of folks writing at Marvel and DC. They're books are for the most part driven by megacrossover events, designed to force people to read four, five, or ten books to get the entire story. The target audience is 35 year old guys who have been reading comics their whole lives, and the handling of characters and continuity reflects that demographic. The idea that "good" writers would make their stoires accessible is just false; the industry is simply not set up to allow any writers to get around the necessity of the megacrossover event.
Also, what is this obsession with Archie? There are lots of continuing series that are accessible. Like, I don't know, Tin-Tin. Or Asterix. Or Peanuts, for that matter.
Noah – You have some good points, and I do agree with a couple, but that is not what I was talking about. My point was that anything that starts as a friendly jumping on point for new readers to Marvel and DC can't stay that way forever.
Ultimate Spider-Man started out a new reader friendly comic after all, but its almost a decade old with 133 issues published. That's a lot of comics to catch up on for something that is supposed to be new friendly.
Naruto #40 isn't accessible…but anyone who can count can look at the cover, and say, "oh, right…I should start reading this series….at number 1. Simple, easy, based on the Arabic numeral system which is familiar to most likely readers. That is what you call "accessible."
All of that applies to any of the Ultimate Marvel books.
But the mainstream, bread-and-butter Spider-Man books, of various stripes? That stuff is pretty much impossible to negotiate for anyone who's not already an initiate.
I wasn't an initiate when I bought Sensational Spider-Man #0 at the age of 11. I never read any of the Clone Saga, didn't know who Ben Reily or Seward Trainer were and was unfamiliar with the comic book version of the characters that I knew from the 90s TV show but none of that stopped from reading and enjoying the Spider-Man books at the time.
Brigid – Marvel actually has recap pages in all of the single issues and some of their trades.
Hey Eric. The problem is that there are "Ultimate" and "regular" books to begin with. That sort of thing just strikes me as gratuitously confusing.
As for your 11 year old self..three points.
1. Yeah, "impossible" was probably an exaggeration; this stuff isn't Ulysses, after all. I think they are less accessible than manga generally is, though.
2. it sounds like you were actually already something of an initiate. You knew the main character and many of the minor ones from the TV show; that gave you an entry point.
3. Comics have actually gotten less and less accessible. With all the insane crossover events and the retcons and so on and so forth, my sense is it's actually harder to get into some of these titles now than it was when you were a kid.
Noah – Yeah, I can see the multiple lines and imprints being confusing to new readers. Marvel seems to like them though. I guess they might see it as offering readers more options.
I agree that individually, manga are a lot more accessible but there are so many books out there with no obvious entry point. I've been getting into manga recently but I had no idea where to start initially. I figured it out as I've gone along, to a degree. I still don't know all the books available or if I like manga X what other manga I should check out. So they are not strictly accessible but I guess Marvel and DC have that problem as well.
Also, I've been meaning to ask, what form are you reading the Marston WW issues in? I want to check them out but don't if they are collected anywhere.
Hey Eric. Yeah, manga as a whole can be daunting, just because there's so much. I'd recommend Parasyte to anybody into super-hero titles, if that's any help.
Marvel's fanbase is mostly people who have been reading comics a long time and like continuity porn. I think the multiple imprints works well for those folks.
Re: Wonder Woman — Not that this is how I am reading them, but I understand it is possible to download the complete run from the usual sources. Not that I would do that.
The stories are also collected through the DC Archive Editions, though interspersed with WW stories from Sensation Comics and other places.
for the record, i think the archie model where nothing ever happens is pretty great, it's the same model a lot of tv shows, comic strips, and other serialized media use. theres' a lot of talk about superheroes being iconic, archetypal figures, and one of the great things about archetypes is that you can fool around with them. i'd love to see more variations on the basic idea of spiderman. when charlie chaplin was making shorts he'd be playing basically the same character every time, but the circumstances were different in each movie and nobody cared, i think a model like that could be interesting for comics.
that said, the inaccessibility of spiderman and x-men comics was very appealing to me when i started reading them as a kid, there was something mysterious about it; it doesn't really do as much for me now though.
I think accessibility tends to be overblown as a problem with today's comic books. Lots of people read comic books in the 70's and 80's, and I think the material was less accessible: story arcs weren't neatly collected in trade paperbacks, you didn't have a comic book store to find that key missing back issue, and nobody had access to Wikipedia to look up the Guardians of the Galaxy or explain the difference between Earth-1 and Earth-2.
I'm not saying that American books are more accessible than manga, just that manga has brought attention to an accessibility problem that's been around for a while. Also, as mentioned in other posts, manga has accessibility issues of its own. Nobody mentioned the obvious: manga is foreign literature, and while the themes are frequently universal, you do need some background information on Japanese culture and history to fully appreciate or understand a lot of these stories.
I agree there is a branding problem with the well known characters like Spider-Man. If you have multiple versions of a character, you better make sure they are clearly differentiated and aimed at different audiences, or what's the point? It does look to me like Marvel does a decent job of branding Marvel Adventures for children.
Looking back at the Ultimate line, I think Marvel was trying to create something to appeal to the teenage manga audience, lost their way, and reverted to form. I liked the early Ultimate stories, especially Spider-Man and X-Men, because I could actually follow these characters without having to buy 20 different books a month. Lost interest when the line became all about parading out the awesome new Ultimate version of your favorite Marvel character.
My toddler nephew has somehow latched on to Spider Man (something about the character just seems to attract kids), and I went the route of buying him some SPIDEY SUPER STORIES. My next step would probably be an Essential volume or something of the sort.
I read Spidey Super Stories way back when…didn't know they were still about.
I think the Marvel Adventures series is actually a better bet than the Essential volumes for young kids, overall.
Superhero comics for adults is unlikely to ever be anything but a very niche product. I don't think more self contained story arcs would do much good.
A related question is if conventional direct market comics attract any new readers. I think they appear to do so, some teenagers or 20-year olds who gravitate to fanboy culture gravitate to comics at some point. Maybe in smaller numbers than needed.maybe not.
I also think the premise of a lot of online discussion, that at some point the present superhero readers will abandon comics, is far from obvious.
They're not mostly 20-year olds anymore. Once you're an 38-year old who reads superhero comics, why wouldn't you continue until you're dead or senile?
It's an interesting thought: How would fanboy comics with a readership mostly in their 70's look like?
Late to the conversation, I'll just say accessibility in nearly all of these cases is overblown. I checked out a Flash trade (Emergency Stop) from my local library for myself and my 8 year old daughter. This Flash was Wally West, with a bunch of stupid characters (Max Mercury, Impulse) and a girlfriend (Linda something) whom neither of us had ever heard of. Barry Allen, my daughter's only really known Flash commodity was nowhere in sight–and, of course, this book is only loosely linked to current continuity. We both read the thing in a couple of hours and enjoyed the hell out of it. Why? Because it was a perfectly readable enjoyable story–and in fact, each issue was perfectly readable and enjoyable on its own, for the most part. There was one stupid "crossover" with GL and GA at the end of the book…but even this was no real problem because the story itself stood alone very well. Yes…there are too many different types of comics with the same characters and aimed at different readerships….But it's not brain surgery. If you pick up a book, you can figure out what's going on in a couple of pages….The bigger "accessibility" problem is with floppy monthlies and comics shops…but the stories themselves just aren't that complcated to worry about "accessibility."
I read X-Men comics for several years in the 90's, but eventually gave up partly because I felt that every time there was a crossover event, which was about once a year, I was only getting part of the story. When I caved and bought some of the related issues from other series, I then felt that I was missing all the background of those stories.
So yes, I agree with Noah that Marvel/DC superhero titles are not accessible. And I think that accessibility is a huge issue for comics. If Marvel & DC hope to expand their audiences, which of course they do, then they need to address that.
If a teenager asked me to recommend some action/adventure comics, I would point them in the direction of manga, for exactly these reasons.
Eric, the thing is, you *know what you're doing.* You have been reading comics for many, many years, and you teach about them at a university level. It's pretty easy for you to look at a Flash trade and say, yeah, this'll work.
My wife was at Borders without me and picked up a Teen Titans comic for our five-year old. And it was totally, totally inappropriate. One of those awful Geoff Jones things; boring and mean and filled with incomprehensible continuity crap. I never would have gotten it because I know what I'm doing…but if you're not a fan from way back, you're going to get stung like that all the time.
Whereas, you buy Naruto, you get Naruto. There isn't some secret code to parse. But there is with super-hero comics. And you know the code, which is great for you and your daughter…but if you don't know it, it's not all that easy to figure out.
As an avid reader of both comic books and manga, who started at a young age but is STILL at a comparatively young age (21), I have to say, quite simply…I ain't buying it. Sorry.
Seems to me the solution is just to release Spider-Man (or any other comic) from the first issue in trades from volume 1 on. Not that difficult.
And starting from "Number 1" is still hard. I've yet to go into a bookstore in the past few years and see Naruto Volume 1. I see the latest 5-8 volumes, but never Volume 1. You could order it online, but your point seems to be that its more simple for kids to read manga as opposed to comics, but see if that's the case, they wouldn't care enough to bother to get Volume 1.
Also. A Geoff Johns insult. Classy and original.
Isn't this part of larger problem of media companies taking adult properties and merchandising them for children? Teen Titans the comic book has not been written for children for decades. The early Wolfman/Perez issues had a teenage Terra having sex with an adult Terminator. Jericho's origin story has his throat being slashed. Time Warner took this property and rebranded it as a children's cartoon, which is the version I'm guessing your wife was looking for.
Should the long running comic book be changed to match the cartoon, or should the cartoon never be made in the first place? How would you fix the TT brand so what happened to your wife doesn't happen again? Do you think Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, should strictly confined to children's literature?
Sage, I looked at the Teen Titans, said this is unbelievable dreck, and then looked at the author. Everybody hates that guy because. he. sucks. If you like him, good for you…but it's not clear to me how class enters into it. Do all his fans sip lattes or something?
You can find the first volume of Naruto online, yes? Most kids have parents with internet access. The fact that Borders is stocked by morons isn't Naruto's fault.
Bryan, the Teen Titans *did* start out for kids, though. The main problem I think is that the comics industry has just been cannibalizing the same ideas and characters for decades. Why make a teen titans cartoon for kids, in some sense? Why not make a new cartoon? Ben 10 is a huge success; my kid likes it better than Teen Titans, no question. In Japan they seem able to come up with new ideas on a regular basis; what's our problem?
"And starting from "Number 1" is still hard. I've yet to go into a bookstore in the past few years and see Naruto Volume 1. I see the latest 5-8 volumes, but never Volume 1."
Although i'm not starved for bookstore choice, this is sort of bullshit. I don't give a rats ass about fucking Naruto and I've bumped into more copies of number 1 than I can count. Go to a real store before making this argument.
Yes, obviously, I can figure out any stupid comic in no time…but I just read it for me…then realized that there was no reason my daughter couldn't read it too (for sex/drugs/etc. content) and gave it to her. No "continuity" discussions were had. She read it and liked it.
My point is that if an 8 year old can figure it out, it's not brain surgery.
Would it be nice if I didn't "have" to read it first to know if it was "appropriate". Maybe…but isn't this true with books, movies, etc. as well? Some stuff is clearly labeled as "all ages"–this wasn't so I read it first…But since I wanted to read it anyway, it was no big burden.
But these are questions about age-appropriateness, not about "comprehendibility". Some comics may be difficult to follow…and others aren't. Just like some books need to be read from #1 through X, while others (like Hardy Boys?) can be picked up at any point without any real problem.
You can read Ulysses without reading Dubliners or Portrait first, even though some of the characters recur…but maybe you need 2 Towers before Return of the King. Is this really such a big problem?
You don't need to read 60 years of comics to get "Emergency Stop"–
So…some creators/stories are good, some bad…Some require knowledge of continuity, some don't. I don't see why this is such a big deal, except that the marketing/P.R. could be and should be better to make some of this clearer.
Noah, I think you're over generalizing about Japan's place as a bastion of original ideas. Godzilla, Astro Boy, Macross, Power Rangers, Dragonball, Ultraman, Hello Kitty, Gundam, Mario, Sailor Moon, have all been around for decades and are still active and popular commercial properties. Manga and anime steal from each other all the time. Cinema too. I seem to recall your review of the Nana movie on this blog. When I was in Japan, the new Sailor Moon live action movie was a big deal. The Japanese are really good at keeping old ideas alive too.
I'm not trying to be snarky, but does your perception of Japanese newness exist because its new to you? Is it possible that some of the Japanese stuff you like is considered overly nostalgic in Japan and being American, you simply aren't aware? I would be willing to bet the percentage of crap to non-crap is the same for both Japan and the United States, we just get the cream of the crop from Japan because publishers are selecting what they think will do well here.
Yeah, anime and manga go back and forth…but not innumerable times — or at least that's my impression. And in Japan there tends to be more fidelity to the original context. The Nana movies were very faithful to the original comic, in a way that super-hero comics don't even try to be.
It's not really America, per se. Lots of new books, movies, etc. here. It's really just the american super-hero comics industry. When have Marvel or DC put out a new, popular hero that had some kind of real cultural marketing oomph? Twenty years ago?
Eric, it's a ton easier to figure out movies or television shows or lots of stuff other than super-hero comics. They are just extremely confusingly marketed.
This is not the same problem, but it's related: the simple, nice, spine-presence 1-thru-whatever makes a big, huge difference when it comes to shelving, even and especially shelving in libraries, which arguably is the most accessible place for people to get their hands on graphic novels/comics.
Let me put it this way: I've been working in comics for six years, professionally for five. I organize and manage, all told, tens of thousands of graphic novels, at least 50,000 single issues, and about as many magazines. I sift through a few hundred comics a month. I've been going to the public library at least once a week for … oh, about 20 years. I needed a specific Ultimate comic for research, which, according to my handy online database, was right on the shelf in the YA section of my big, fancy local library.
So, I showed up in the YA graphic novel section (where I easily browse and check out manga all the time, for work and for leisure reading) and I attempted to find this Ultimate comic in the forlorn, scraggly, non-manga YA GN section. I have the call number written out: it's a mess, because things are alternately alphabetized by cartoonist or by character if it's a mainstream comic. I looked carefully through EVERY SINGLE non-manga YA GN, and I couldn't find the Ultimate comic I was looking for. I swallowed my pride, went over to the YA librarian, and SHE couldn't find it. She offered to transfer it over from another branch and put it on hold for me, but at this point I was just kind of fed up and decided I had enough material without it.
In other words, I can't imagine a 9 year old kid wandering up the YA GN section, systematically working his or her way through each comic until he or she happening upon Ultimate Spider-Man Vol. 1 (wedged right next to a probably kind of weird looking Marvel Essentials and a James Sturm comic and a Superman one), and going, "aha!" with any kind of relative ease. Whereas, it would be completely easy for a 9 year old kid to wander up to the manga section, see the Ns, see a nice, solid, uniform block of Naruto, see Vol. 1 and be off.
Noah, I don't really see the point you're trying to make about fidelity. The first two Spider-Man movies were true to the comics and turned out well. Watchmen was very close to the book and was not so great.
You're not going to get an argument from me about the lack of original concepts from Marvel or DC. If you want to go outside the big two, Hellboy, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, and Spawn are recent superhero type characters that have had breakout success outside of comic books.
Back to the point, I don't see how the history, age, or originality of a particular character has a lot of bearing on accessibility.
Accessibility.
I can see it from a perspective of someone completely new to comics being easily overwhelmed by the sheer amount and volume of (Spider-Man) comics or (Batman) comics out there.
Why is it that the Dark Knight did so well in the market, but the Batman comics experienced no growth?
Possibly because there is no centralized "Dark Knight" comic. Or, because there are too many that people get confused between all of them.
I think the difference between accessibility between Naruto and say Spider-Man, is the way the two franchises are handled.
Naruto manga has had one writer and one artist: Masashi Kishimoto.
From Volume 1 until 40 until he decides to end the franchise.
Spider-Man?…Not so much 20 different people will tell you of 20 different combinations of writer and artist teams, then tell you their favorite one.
For simplicity sake? Naruto is easier to get a start and handle on. And the series as a whole will probably fair better creatively for it.
Spider-Man? If someone doesn't like a marriage, another writer can come in and erase it. One writer kills someone off? Another can bring him back. Resulting in the phenomena known as "comic book death" And everyone is thrown for a loop and confused.
This is something that I dealt with when going back to American comics.
Amazing Spider-Man; Sensational Spider-Man; Spider-Man Family; Spider-Man House of M;
And then the big thick book called Spider-Man Essentials. You expect me to read a big thick book like Essentials and get caught up???
Then came Ultimate Spider-Man. "Volume 1?", I said. Wait, a clear beginning and only 15 volumes? There was a possibility that I could have a clear start and not be completely lost. I was sold.
Something clear, concise, and centralized.
2 cents.
Later
Bryan, fidelity doesn't have anything to do with quality. It does have something to do with accessibility though. With Naruto, you always know what you're getting; with Spider-Man you don't. That's confusing, and puts off new readers.
I talk about this here at greater length.
" The main problem I think is that the comics industry has just been cannibalizing the same ideas and characters for decades. Why make a teen titans cartoon for kids, in some sense?"
Remember the "Teen Titans Go" cartoon show?
"In Japan they seem able to come up with new ideas on a regular basis; what's our problem?"…………."It's really just the american super-hero comics industry. When have Marvel or DC put out a new, popular hero that had some kind of real cultural marketing oomph? Twenty years ago?"
At the risk of sounding like a crank, since I've said this before some months back- the problem starts with work for hire. In a world where Stan Lee takes most of the public credit for Spider Man and others, what rational artist would be motivated to give away a property to a major corporation? The big two's famous characters are built on the backs of exploited artists. I don't see how this will change at any time in the future. The big two don't come out with new concepts because they were not built that way to begin with once you get past their first several years of existence.
I think you're right that work for hire is a problem.
djkentaron– I think Spider-Man is one of the most accessible comics of all time. Much more so than Naruto.
Going by Naruto's sales volume, a lot of people would disagree with that statement.
sYnthYte– i started trying to compare the accessability of the two subjects and came to conclude that they really can't be compared that way. Naruto, and most manga in general, are mortal. They are very, very long graphic novels, essentially. This means you have an start point and an end point, but also that the storytelling is typically more complex and thus requires more background to fully comprehend.
Manga series' finite nature has built in advantages over mainstream superhero comics. Mainstream superhero characters go on forever. Their ongoing nature limits the type of stories that can be told. Which is really why all these Naruto comparisons are probably quite useless. The superhero as a concept is quite limited. When you compound that with the constrictions that come with those brand name characters, then it's really no contest.
Eric Rupe I've been getting into manga recently but I had no idea where to start initially. I figured it out as I've gone along, to a degree. I still don't know all the books available or if I like manga X what other manga I should check out. So they are not strictly accessible but I guess Marvel and DC have that problem as well.
Yes, like Noah said it's daunting to get into manga.
But only at first. Once you get past the trepidation, manga in general is very reader friendly. While a lot of previous posters say that they have no problems getting their children into mainstream comics, I do think those are exceptions to the rule. The yardstick to go by is what the general reader would think, and by those standards most mainstream DC/Marvel FAIL.
Bryan I think accessibility tends to be overblown as a problem with today's comic books. Lots of people read comic books in the 70's and 80's, and I think the material was less accessible….
It depends on how you define "lots of people."
…and nobody had access to Wikipedia to look up the Guardians of the Galaxy or explain the difference between Earth-1 and Earth-2.
If you need wikipedia to help understand a comic book the odds are it isn't very good. Besides that, I seriously doubt that most people even want to read those Wikipedia entries. The DC/Marvel backstories are so complicated to begin with that one could get a migraine even looking them up on that site. ?
David Weman- Superhero comics for adults is unlikely to ever be anything but a very niche product. I don't think more self contained story arcs would do much good.
I agree. Especially the way the big two make them. One thing I think most non comic book readers prize more than anything is a real sense of humor. And that is something completely alien to most of what the big two put out.
Bryan– Noah, I think you're over generalizing about Japan's place as a bastion of original ideas. Godzilla, Astro Boy, Macross, Power Rangers, Dragonball, Ultraman, Hello Kitty, Gundam, Mario, Sailor Moon, have all been around for decades and are still active and popular commercial properties.
Well, they may be around as commercial properties but they're certainly not active as comics. You're mixing up two separate things. We're not talking about plush dolls or wall posters here. With few exceptions, most manga end once the creator chooses to quit. That certainly isn't the case with American mainstream comics. I seriously doubt that you see in Japan a million manga variations of Astro Boy or Sailor Moon. What's more, once those properties ended there certainly wasn't a lapse in new titles taking their place.
Manga and anime steal from each other all the time. Cinema too. I seem to recall your review of the Nana movie on this blog. When I was in Japan, the new Sailor Moon live action movie was a big deal. The Japanese are really good at keeping old ideas alive too.
I think you're missing the point. How is the Nana movie stealing from the manga version? Or from any other anime? The movie was undoubtedly made with the creator's consent. The point Noah made wasn't that it's wrong to make movies out of older material. The point is that there's a problem if you don't know how to connect to the audience.
It is true that a lot of the kid's manga seem to be about power rankings and merchandise tie ins. But there are plenty of alternatives to them.
…. I would be willing to bet the percentage of crap to non-crap is the same for both Japan and the United States, we just get the cream of the crop from Japan because publishers are selecting what they think will do well here.
I would hesitate before generalizing anything about manga. The industry in Japan is so gigantic that most comparisons to American companies are pointless. As most serious manga fans know, we're getting only a fraction of the good stuff. And the stuff you see over here in the bookstores is not representative of the actual whole. The crop in Japan is much, much bigger than ours.
…Back to the point, I don't see how the history, age, or originality of a particular character has a lot of bearing on accessibility.
It does when you have different versions of characters going back decades running many thousands of pages of back story. Besides that, how many variations on the same theme can one come up with? It's been played out for years.